我们观察了您作品的改变和发展，这个过程很有趣，可以看到一个线性的发展和进化。您可以跟我分享一下您开始做艺术的时候如何选择这种新写实主义的风格吗?
We have been following the changes and developments of your artistic practice. It’s very interesting to see the linearity and the coherence in your artistic evolution. Could you share with us how you started elaborating this innovative approach to realism?
关于这个问题有一个大的背景：我刚学画的时候，周围有些亲戚是画国画的，我是看着他们的国画了解绘画的。我生长在河南的小县城，没能全面地看到中国的当代水墨的发展，到读大学才看到当代水墨。在当时，我看到的是传统水墨，觉得这个东西是死亡的艺术、没有任何出路，我看不到它有任何发展的前景。虽然对中国传统的山水画、人物画都非常喜欢，在我从小生活的氛围里，周围看到的都是字画：墙上挂的都是一些清代的和民国的字画，我就在这样的氛围里成长起来。
I need to provide background information first: when I started studying painting, I mainly came into contact with traditional Chinese Painting. I grew up in a small village in Henan Province, so just when I enrolled in the university, I started to come into contact with Chinese ink painting. However, at that time, I was mainly studying Chinese traditional ink painting and I felt that it was an outdated artistic trend with no future development. Even though I like Chinese traditional landscape painting and portraits, however, since my childhood, I was more familiar with calligraphic works from Qing Dynasty and from Republican China.
△ 旧房间和新气球 Old Room and New Balloon，2015-2023
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，30×24cm
关于油画，我小时候看过香港出版的一本很厚的圣经故事，用油画来介绍圣经故事。这本书是我的启蒙，那时觉得太神奇了，太逼真，这些画怎么画的这么好。后来学画的时候，我的考前班老师是画油画的，这也比较巧合，我看他油画画的挺好的，所以很自然的就学了油画。
When I was very young, once I saw an illustrated Bible published by a Hong Kong publishing house where stories from the Bible were presented through illustrations of oil paintings. This book represented a source of inspiration for me: the illustrations were amazing and extremely realistic. Later on, when I was learning painting, my professor from pre-examination class was a very talented oil painter: it was quiet a coincidence but this is how I started studying oil painting.
读大学之后，有两个线索一直在我脑中缠绕：一个是，虽然没有选择中国传统的水墨和书法去作为自己的艺术语言，但是因为生长在中国，看到的经典都是中国的传统的艺术，周围接触的朋友、同学，尤其是中国美院在杭州，它传统的国画和书法是比较强的，我受了很大的影响。另外一方面，对于写实油画的掌握和学习，很幸运我遇到的老师都基本功非常好，所以掌握了这门绘画语言。
In university, my artistic practice developed along two conceptual lines: the first is associated with the fact that, even though I did not choose to adopt Chinese traditional ink painting and calligraphy as main artistic language, I grew up in that cultural environment: friends, university fellows, professors at the Hangzhou Academy were all dealing with classical Chinese painting and calligraphy and therefore I absorbed that influence. The second line is associated with realist painting: I was lucky enough to meet Professors with very good skills in realist painting and therefore I managed to learn and master this artistic language.
△ 仙人掌 Cactus，2018-2019
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，30×24cm
我的绘画手法大概是在本科三到四年级的时候开始稳定的，在这之前，西方的写实的油画传统和中国的山水精神，在我头脑里头经常会打架。
I achieved stability in my painting technique during the third and the four year of my BA: before that time, western realistic oil panting tradition and Chinese landscape painting spirit used to clash.
比如说下乡的时候，我就会去画山和云，杭州云雾缭绕的、天气变化比较快，我很自然的会去关注山水和风景，很自然的就会去想用水墨。但是油画是一个基于欧式几何学、从文艺复兴一路下来的一个传统，它是非常理性的。我在学习的过程中，从绘画技巧到观察方法都尽量做到严谨和逻辑性强。受西班牙画家安东尼奥·洛佩斯·加西亚的影响，严格的对景写生，对实物写生，甚至拿尺子去量去测量。还有英国画家尤格罗，他也是用测量的方式去画画。这样的方法让我的写实技巧进步得非常快，很快就掌握了可以把对象画得非常逼真的技巧。
For example, when I used to go to the countryside, I would paint mountains and clouds. Hangzhou is surrounded by clouds and mist, the weather changes quickly and therefore I would naturally focus on visual elements of mountains and rivers, and I would naturally use ink and wash painting. Oil painting is a tradition based on European geometry, which has its root in the Renaissance: it is extremely rational. During my learning process, I tried my best to be rigorous and logical not just in terms of painting technique but also in terms of observation method. I was exposed to the influence of Spanish painter Antonio Lopez Garcia, who sketches natural landscapes and objects from life and sometimes uses a ruler for accurate dimensions. The British painter Uglow, who also used to focus on accurate measurements to paint, represented another source of inspiration for me. This accurate method made my realistic skills improve very quickly, and I quickly mastered the technique of drawing objects very realistically.
△ 佛手瓜 Chayote，2016-2022
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，30×24cm
在杭州的油画氛围中，我算是画的非常写实且理性的，大家都觉得我已经是油画画的还比较地道比较理性。但是在2013年，我去西班牙见到洛佩斯本人，给他看我的作品，他说我的作品有非常强烈的东方气质，我当时就有一个巨大的落差，我那么想非常理性的把油画画得像西方油画一样地道，但是他觉得还是东方的。
Among the Professors and academy fellows in Hangzhou, I was considered to have a very rational and realistic approach in my oil paintings. However, when in 2013 I went to Spain to meet Lopez and I showed him my works, he said that he saw a strong eastern character in my painting: what a discrepancy between me considering my works as rational and close to western tradition and him detecting eastern elements!
所以我后来就在思考我们的文化本源。但目前在我的作品里其实还没有直接在题材和内容上去体现这个方面。我做事情比较谨慎也比较慢。后来我研究了大量中国传统的陶俑、陶器、石雕、石窟，这些年我一有功夫就往中国各地跑，收藏古物来作为学习资料。但是怎么结合到自己的作品里，目前还没有一个特别好的方案。
Later on, I have been thinking about our different cultural roots: however, in my works, there was not a direct representation of these cultural connotations in terms of subject matters and content: I do things more cautiously and slower. Later, I studied traditional Chinese pottery, ceramics, stone carvings, and cave paintings, cultural relics and ancient artifacts. These years, whenever I have time, I like to travel to different parts of China to collect ancient objects as learning material for my paintings, but I still have to figure out how to incorporate them in my works.
Part.2 作品系列 Series of Works
我的作品中，比如说瓦楞纸纸箱的系列，是在读研究生时（大概10年前）开始的，和我的“审视”系列是同步进行的。我从静物/废弃物入手，是看到了中国改革开放之后大量的社会变化。有一次很偶然的机会，我去了南方的一些工厂，感到特别震撼，各种各样的手工和机械设备，还有堆积如山的工业化的景观，我特别想画那个东西。
I started working on some of my works, like the series of carton boxes and the “Looking Closely” series during my graduate school (about 10 years ago). I started to experiment with still life and discarded objects to capture the social changes after China's reform and opening. Once, by chance, I went to some factories in the south, and I was particularly shocked to see all kind of mechanical equipment and industrial objects one on top of the other, as to form a sort of industrialized landscape. This was the image that I wanted to paint.
△ 观物系列 Observing Materiality Series，2023
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，180×200cm
我的观物系列（纸盒的系列），中间大概有6幅是空缺的，这个系列已经进行到第19，但是中间的第11-15还没有画。可能以后会用其他的方式来实现它，可能还会再用纸盒堆积景观去画。有两幅特别大的第18和19，基本上把纸盒堆积成一个园林或者废墟的状态，里边有一个苦行僧的形象。
In my series “Observing Materiality” (cardboard box series), there are six works which haven’t been finished yet. Out of 19 pieces, works between the number 11th and 15th are missing. Maybe I will use different expressive methods to complete these works later on, or maybe I will continue to use cardboard boxes to create landscapes. Two pieces, namely n. 18th and 19th, are large scale paintings where cardboard boxes are visually arranged into gardens or ruins, with an ascetic atmosphere.
我大学的时候还特别受卡拉瓦乔的影响，疯狂的热爱、想要模仿卡拉瓦乔的创作，甚至找了一个骷髅、点了蜡烛、放了一本圣经，自己坐在那拍了一张照片，然后画了一张创作，画得很失败，后来就放弃了。但是他的影响一直存在，红衣服的形象大概也是出于这样的一个影响，我最近也在画一些有红衣修士服形象的作品。我还画了好多仙人掌，包括植物、树叶。我特别喜欢仙人掌的状态和感觉：长年不给它浇水它照样能活着，它有很顽强的生命力。
During university, I was exposed to the influence of Carvaggio: I loved his works and I wanted to imitate him. I even found a skeleton, I lit a candle and placed a Bible next to me: sitting there, I took photos of this setting and tried to paint it, however the result was a failure, so I gave up. However, his influence was a recurrent element in my artistic creations: symbols like monks with red dresses often appear also in my paintings. Moreover, I also painted cactus and other plants, but I like cactus very much for their resilience,their ability to resist for a long time even without water and their vital force.
△ 仙人掌 Cactus，2023
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，40×30cm
基本上我的创作方法是好几个系列同时推进，但完成度不是特别好，这个也是我的一个问题。以前我们刚毕业的时候，10年前，当时中国的艺术品市场特别好，我的有一些系列卖的挺好，有些前辈就提醒我不要过度的重复自己。我就有点矫枉过正了，会觉得这个系列先停一停，卖的好的先停一停，先探索新的东西。所以基本上大概有将近10年的时间都是比较漫无目的的去碰撞和探索的，没有特别的限定自己的绘画方法和类型。好多系列其实只画了头几张，后边的都还没有给补上。当然从商业角度讲可能比较失败，一直拿不出一个比较完整系列作品的展览，这个是我下个阶段要去解决的问题。
Basically, my creative method is based on working simultaneously on different series, sometimes without completing them. Right after graduation, about 10 years ago, the market in China was very vibrant and some of my series sold very well. Some artists from older generation would encourage me not to repeat myself: I took this suggestion very seriously: I used to start a series and then stop it, to engage in new research and experimentations. In the past ten years, I focused on different experiments without imposing to myself any sort of restrictions in the painting method. For some series, I would just paint a couple works and then stop it. This is a failure from a commercial point of view and it’s challenging to put together a comprehensive and coherent exhibition, therefore this is a problem that needs to be rectified.
Part.3 创作思考 Creative Thinking
卡拉瓦乔、洛佩斯，甚至更早的时候我的素描受米开朗基罗的影响最大，我几乎临摹过他全部的素描。这些影响不光是技巧上，还有精神上，我不光是研究他们的技巧，还会研究他们的传记和书信，吸收学习，最后形成自己的创作观念。对周围事物的观察也是一个重要的来源。我比较宅很少出门，但是每次遇到一些没见过的景观就特别激动，或者是下乡时看到一些我经验里没有的地方的时候，我就会觉得特别受刺激，会有一些新的创作。这个是比较笼统的我的工作状态的描述。我可能有点完美主义，好多画一直、甚至会持续10年的去修改，但是最近我在克服这个事情，因为这样的话好多画一直画不完。
Caravaggio, Lopez and Michelangelo’s drawings influenced my artistic evolution. I have almost copied all their drawings. This influence emerged not just at a technical level, but also at a spiritual level. I have been analysing their technique and I have been studying their biographies and letters. To absorb their teachings contributed to shape my conceptual creations. The observation of the surrounding environment is also an important source of inspiration. I like to stay at home, and I don’t go out very often but every time I experience something different, and I see a different scenery, I feel very excited, and I get the inspiration for new creations. This is a comprehensive description of my working approach. I might be also a perfectionist: sometimes I work on a painting for ten years, changing it constantly. However, lately I rectified this attitude, otherwise it would be impossible to complete most of the works.
How do you decide when a work is finished?
那种状态是很难说清楚的。首先是想表达的东西表达得比较完善了，情绪或者感觉到位，这个是前提。然后还有技巧上的，比如说笔触我觉得它的方向不对，不符合我这个画面，我就会给它改掉。对于传统绘画的很多知识和要求，在我身上还是比较起作用的，我并没有彻底的去放弃它，主要是去使用并且去完善。这是我目前这个阶段的状态。
It is very difficult to tell clearly when a work is finished. First of all, the premise is that the expression of what I want to convey and the representation of feelings is complete. Then the technical aspect needs to be taken into account. For example, if I think that brushstrokes are wrong or they are not compatible with the work, then I retouch the painting several times. The knowledge and requirements of traditional painting played an important role in my creative process: I did not give them up, on the contrary, I use them and I perfect them. This is my current condition. △ 观物•之十 Observing Materiality n.10，2022
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，195×130cm
还有一个内在气质上的问题，有两个东西在我的思维里是打架的。我不属于莫兰迪那样的画家，就是在一个很清晰的道路上自始至终，风格也非常明确，也不像安格尔。比如说，我同时喜欢德拉克罗瓦和安格尔，一个是非常浪漫主义的画家，一个是古典主义的画家。或者说，我同时喜欢表现主义和现实主义。这两个东西在我的画面里头经常会出现一个矛盾，比如说我起稿的时候是表现主义的绘画，不考虑形体颜色，画笔会很大，像涂鸦一样画画，逐渐在第二遍、第三遍就开始变得理性，最后深入细致，然后就安静下来，是这么一个过程。这两个东西我一直统一不太好，不知道该怎么办，但是这个会让我很受刺激，经常会特别兴奋。
There is also a question of inner temperament. There are two conflicting aspects in my thinking system. I am not a painter like Morandi, who follows a clear path from the beginning to the end with a very clear and coherent style and I am also different from painters like Ingres. For example, I like Delacroix and Ingres at the same time, one is a very romantic painter and the other is a classicist painter and I also like expressionism and realism at the same time. There is often a dichotomy in my paintings. For example, when I first draft a painting, sometimes it looks like an expressionist work. In the first stage, I don’t consider the shape and color, and the brushstrokes are very large, almost like graffiti. After three times, I start to become rational, and then turn deep and meticulous to finally calm down. This is the creative process I usually go through. Even though I don’t harmonize these two conflicting aspects, this condition stimulates me and makes me feel excited.
在之前，我想象中我是一个画历史画、宏大场景的画家，我是一个有英雄主义情结的画家。放弃了幻想之后，我就想看看自己到底是个什么画家，就摆了一些静物漫无目的的画，发现自己是一个气质上比较安静的画家。自己的想象和自然流露出来的状态有一个冲突感，这个冲突其实现在也没有解决。
Before, in my imagination I thought to become a historical painter with heroic sentiments. I then gave up this illusion and I started to engage in still life paintings, as I realized that I had a very calm temperament. There was a discrepancy between the painter that I imagined to be and the painter that I was naturally becoming. I still did not solve this contradiction.
△ 天祝石门沟 Tianzhu Shimengou，2019-2023
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，40×60cm
但是冲突感也是使您的作品变得丰富的一个手段，对不对？
This discrepancy is actually the premise for your work to be various and multifaceted, do you agree with this?
我非常认同你的说法。从商业角度来讲的话，展览或者画廊希望艺术家有一个明确的某一类型的绘画，这样它商业上比较好推广。像我这样的就比较麻烦，我作品有好几种面貌，在我的构思里，未来是有一个很宏大的谱系系统的，但是目前我只做出了一部分，所以从表面上来看可能会显得过于杂乱。但其实我自己有计划，作品的系列最后能互相影响，并且融合在一起。
I agree with this statement. However, from a commercial point of view, any gallery hopes to have artists with a clear painting method that can be easily promoted. Artists like me are more problematic. My works look very different: they are part of a large genealogic system and they are constantly evolving, so my body of works might look cluttered. However, I have my own plan and this multifaceted and different works one day will merge together.
镜子和自我映射是您作品中反复出现的元素，这个可以被认为是具有自传性的自我表达或者有特殊的象征性的意义?
Mirror is a recurrent element in your works, does it represent a way for self-expression or does it have any specific symbolic meaning?
最开始的时候是画自画像，画自己比较容易，研究造型、研究人的表象和心理，因为自己最了解自己的内心状态。从这个角度去观察自己、画自己。后来在作品里，我觉得镜子是非常值得探讨的一个意象。从物理学上它是一个光学原理，但是从哲学和心理学的角度，它是一个非常让人着迷的事情，它是一个虚拟的空间，一个虚构的世界。
At the very beginning, I painted self-portraits. I studied modeling, human appearance and psychology, and it was easier to paint myself because we know ourselves the best and we can observe and draw ourselves from this perspective. In later works, I started exploring the idea of mirror: from the perspective of physics, it embodies an optical principle, but from the perspective of philosophy and psychology, it is a very fascinating object as it determines a virtual space, a fictional world.
△ 审视9 Looking Closely 9，2022-2023
布面油画 Oil on Canvas，127×92cm
通过镜子可以做自我的审视，自我的观察和关照，主要是这个角度去切入的。从空间上来讲，镜子构建了一个神秘的环境，像开了一扇窗，不是一个窗外的风景，它是一个虚拟的世界，又像是画中画。每次在画镜子的时候我都会特别着迷，尤其是镜子里头有自己的自画像。
Mirror is a way to carry out self-examination and self-observation: in terms of space, the mirror determines a mysterious environment, it’s like a window opening to a virtual world, a picture- in the picture. I am fascinated every time I draw a mirror, especially with a self-portrait.
仝紫云，1987年生于河南省。本科及硕士毕业于中国美术学院油画系。现为国家二级美术师，中国艺术研究院油画院研修班教师、课题组成员，中国艺术研究院博士生，中国美术家协会会员。
Tong Ziyun was born in Henan Province in 1987. He graduated from the Oil Painting Department of the China Academy of Art with a bachelor's degree and a master's degree. He is a teacher and a member of the research group of the Oil Painting Institute of the China National Academy of Arts. He is also a doctoral student of the China National Academy of Arts, and a member of the China Artists Association.
作品曾于中国艺术研究院油画院美术馆，中国美术馆、今日美术馆、日照市美术馆、浙江省展览馆、苏州公共文化艺术中心、宁波美术馆、江苏省美术馆、重庆市美术馆、美国加尔文大学中心美术馆，天津美术馆、北京观唐美术馆、深圳关山月美术馆、西安美术学院美术馆、北京中捷当代美术馆、东亿美术馆、西班牙M.E.A.M现代艺术博物馆、漳州美术馆、哈尔滨红场美术馆、保利艺术博物馆、嘉德艺术中心、Hi艺术中心、山艺术北京林正艺术空间、SKP RENDEZ-VOUS GALLERY等展出。
His works have been exhibited in many institutions including Art Museum of the Oil Painting Institute of the Chinese Academy of Arts, National Art Museum of China, Today Art Museum, Rizhao Art Museum, Zhejiang Provincial Exhibition Hall, Suzhou Public Culture and Art Center, Ningbo Art Museum, Jiangsu Art Museum, Chongqing Art Museum, Calvin University Central Art Museum, Tianjin Art Museum, Beijing Guantang Art Museum, Shenzhen Guan Shanyue Art Museum, Xi’an Academy of Fine Arts Art, Beijing Zhongjie Contemporary Art Museum, Dongyi Art Museum, M.E.A.M Museum of Modern Art (Spain), Zhangzhou Art Museum, Harbin Red Square Art Museum, Poly Art Museum, Guardian Art Center, Hi Art Center, Shan Art Beijing Linzheng Art Space, SKP RENDEZ-VOUS GALLERY.
作品曾被国家大剧院、中国艺术研究院、中国美术学院、江苏省美术馆、江西省美术馆、淮安市美术馆、筑中美术馆等艺术机构收藏。
His works have been collected by the National Center for the Performing Arts, China Academy of Arts, Jiangsu Provincial Art Museum, Jiangxi Provincial Art Museum, Huaian Art Museum, Zhuzhong Art Museum and other art institutions.
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